To Marc Rasell from Russell Kelly

October 23, 2009

1.  WITHIN THE VEIL:

Russ: Your comments about the veil are good but they are contrary to what EGW and SDAs have always taught. Ellen G White made a big deal out of the veil ---not me. She was wrong. Since Christ was the veil and, since the veil separated the holy from the most holy, then logic teaches that the heavenly sanctuary does not have a veil separating two rooms.

Christ entered into the Presence of the Father and sat down at His right hand as his ascension. That absolutely must mean that he has been in the MHP since his ascension and SDA theology is wrong.

2.      ANTIOCHUS IV EPIPHANES:

Russ: Daniel 8:8-9 could refer to either a horn or a direction. SDAs teach that "out of one of them" refers to one of the "winds" --or Rome in the West. Others say it must refer to one of the four "horns" which replaced Alexander the Great --the Seleucids.

A. The SDA argument is weak because no new "animal" arose to replace the goat of Greece. The pattern in Daniel 2 was to bring up a new metal and the pattern in Daniel 7 and 8 was to bring up a new animal for a new kingdom.

B. The SDA position is even weaker when it teaches that the three little horns in Daniel 7 were the Arian Ostrogoths, Heruli and Vandals. However the prophecy has them being part of the Roman beast but these three were never part of pagan Rome.

3.  Marc argued that Antiochus never "cast down the foundation of the sanctuary.

A. Antiochus did kill many Jews, cast out the high priest and destroy the great altar of burnt offering by offering a pig on it (8:10-11). This stopped sanctuary usage until it was cleansed from defilement.

B. Neither did the Roman Catholic Church literally cast down the sanctuary.

C. The only way SDAs try to justify these texts is to combine pagan Rome with Papal Rome.

D. SDAs teach that the RCC figuratively cast down the sanctuary in heaven when it introduced the confessional.  I reply that Antiochus' actions are much closer to the fulfilment than is the figurative confessional in the 12th century.

E. We both point out that the Roman Empire which literally threw down the sanctuary in AD70 is a type of the Antichrist. In Mt 24:15 Jesus connects Antiochus with the Antichrist. There is no connection between Antiochus and the RC Church. This argument is at the most a draw.

F.  If the SDA 2300 years began in BC 457, that should be the beginning point of the little horn's desolations. However neither pagan Rome nor papal Rome did anything in BC 457. This is a serious SDA error.

4.  Marc said "Antiochus only defiled the temple for three years which does not fit the 2300 days."

A.  2300 days is 6.4 years. It does fit the period 171 to 165 BC when Antiochus began his oppression. 2300 cycles of evening and morning sacrifices is also 3.2 years which fits the period 168 to 165 BC

B. If Antiochus does not fit the 2300 days, then the SDA 2300 years certainly does not fit! SDAs had to invent an entirely new interpretation to force it to fit in order to explain William Miller's false prophecy of the end of the world in 1844. Nobody, absolutely nobody, agrees with you that Jesus entered into the MHP to begin judging believers in 1844. And you accuse us of things which "do not fit"!!!

C. If the Bible teaches a day-for-a-year principle to be used in prophecy, and if the one-day-a-year is a prophecy to begin in 1844, then the Day of Atonement should have lasted from 1844 to 1845. How do you justify saying that the prophetic Day of Atonement has already lasted 165 years? (2009-1844)

5.  Marc said: "In Daniel 8:23 we learn that the little horn will come at the latter end of the Grecian reign. This cannot be said of Antiochus because he was somewhere in the middle of the Seleucid Empire among a number of other kings rather than at the latter end."

A. Biblical prophecy focuses on national Israel. As far as Israel was concerned Antiochus IV did indeed come as the LAST of the Seleucid rulers over Israel. The next non-Jewish ruler over Israel would be pagan Rome in AD 64.

B. The prophecy is clear that the giant goat horn of Alexander would be replaced by his four generals.  That is historically accurate in Greece, Macedonia, Syria Seleucids and Egypt. Again no new animal was introduced in Daniel 8.

C. Since SDAs cannot credit this to the RCC, they claim that pagan Rome and papal Rome are the same power in prophetic history. You have to ignore the fact that pagan Rome persecuted the early church from its beginning until AD 325. And even then the early church was only one of many religions within pagan Rome for until AD 476. Your blending of pagan Roman and papal Rome is about 450 years out of its historical context.

6.  WHICH TEMPLE:

Marc said "Just a note to say Daniel 2, 7, 8 all end their visions with something in heaven."

A. I disagree. My Bible ends chapters two and seven with God's kingdom on earth which your doctrine of the millennium totally ignores.

B. You accept your myth as a fact in chapter 8 and then argue from your myth. The sanctuary immediately before 8:14 is almost universally interpreted to be the Temple in Jerusalem in 8:10-12. And it is absolutely clear that the sanctuary in chapter 9 is the Temple in Jerusalem. Your interpretation of a heavenly sanctuary in 8:14 is completely out of context even in Daniel.

C. In chapter 9 Daniel was grieving about the literal sanctuary on Earth which had been destroyed. How would a cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary 2300 years in the future be a consolation for Daniel?

7.      THE YEAR DAY PRINCIPLE:

Marc said "This is derived principally from the 70 weeks of Daniel 9."

A. You should read a lot more SDA literature. The source is almost always Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:6. The Hebrew of Daniel 9 can stand on its own without resorting to Numbers 14:34. And did anybody ever tell you that the vowel markings were not introduced into the Hebrew text until 700-800 years after Calvary?

B.  There is no connection the Sabbath years of Daniel 9:24 and the ereb-boqer of 8:14.  

8.  Nisdaq = cleansed

Marc said "Most ancient translations said it meant cleansed."

A. The NAS reads "then will be properly restored." The NIV reads "then will be reconsecrated." The RSV reads "then shall be restored to its rightful state." The acts of the little horn were to END at the END of the 2300 days. SDAs teach that they would "begin to end"!!! How do you justify your misuse of the text?

B. TSA-DEK is almost always understood to mean "righteous." Check out Strongs' #6663.

C. If God had wanted us to connect it to the cleansing of the Day of Atonement, He would have surely used the word TAHER. Almost ALL of the modern translations have it correct.

9.  EVENING AND MORNING:

Marc said "Evenings and mornings

never refer to the sacrifices which are always “morning and evening”.

A. Lev 24:3 Without the vail of the testimony, in the tabernacle of the congregation, shall Aaron order it from the evening unto the morning before the LORD continually: it shall be a statute for ever in your generations.

B. I suppose Leviticus 24:3 is not in your Bible. This is the first use in the heart of the ceremonial worship ordinance.

C. Since the Hebrew day began at sunset with the evening sacrifice, common sense tells us that Daniel 8:14 would have been understood as normal days.

D. What gives you the authority to insist on interpreting Daniel 8:14 as prophetic years?

10. Marc wrote: Anointing of the sanctuary with blood. See Hebrews 9:21. This refers to inauguration rather than final cleansing."

A.  Yes, it does refer to inauguration. When Jesus entered heaven he inaugurated the New Covenant once and for all time.

B. There is no indication that the heavenly sanctuary was ever defied or ever required a cleansing. It is incredible to teach that God's dwelling place could even be defiled.

11. Marc wrote "That the sanctuary itself was cleansed is stated in Leviticus 16:16 at the end of the year, the link to the people’s sins is indirect."

A.  The earthly sanctuary required cleansing because it was located "in the midst" of several million sinners. That is not true of the heavenly sanctuary.

B. The blood shed on the Day of Atonement did exactly the same thing as the blood shed every day of the year. It washed away sin at the entrance and it was presented to God as proof that the redemption price had been paid.

C.  The only difference between the Day of Atonement and other days was to cover sins of ignorance which had not been previously confessed. And only minor sins of ignorance, accidental swearing and theft were brought to the sanctuary. Major presumptuous sins were brought to the judges and disciplined harshly. See Lev 4 and Heb 10:26 also.

12.  IN THE HOLY PLACE:

Marc wrote: According to Revelation 4-5 which uses imagery of the holy place: a door into heaven, incense, seven spirits, Jesus is there before the throne. The earthly tabernacle was a shadow or copy of the reality in heaven, so there are some differences.

A.  Revelation 4 and 5 are a picture of the throne room of God where no veil exists. All items of furniture are in the same room. Your attempt to place the scene only in the first compartment is ridiculous.

B. Revelation was written before AD 100. This is about 1744 years before the SDA church says it really happened.

13.  THE SABBATH AS A TYPE:

Marc said "Yes, but not all type are temporary shadows, e.g. marriage. … Only types given after the fall involving animal sacrifices were temporary."

A.  The seventh-day Sabbath given to national Israel after its removal from slavery was merely a type of the original pre-sin Sabbath in which man rested 7 days a week and 24 hours a day.

B.  The Saturday seventh-day Sabbath was only commanded to Israel in Ex 31:13-17 and God did not command Israel to share its covenant with Gentiles who did not dwell with them as circumcised.

14. THE SCAPEGOAT:

Marc said: "One goat was for the Lord and the other for Azazel which the most ancient Jewish and Christian sources attributed to an evil being."

A.  The Bible does not say that the scapegoat "was" Azazel. It was "for" Azazel.

B. BOTH were offered alive before the Lord "as a sin offering." All sin offerings became MOST HOLY (Num 18:9). If the scapegoat were Satan, the high priest would have been defiled when he placed his hands on him.

15. Marc wrote: The fact that the Lord is a personal being suggests that Azazel is also a personal being.

Jesus died outside the camp, outside the holy camp of God's people --in Satan's camp. The fact that Jesus died in Azazel's domain does not make Jesus Azazel.

16: Marc: -The rite of the scapegoat was only preformed after the sanctuary had been cleansed (Lev. 16:20).

A.  The rite involving the scapegoat BEGAN when the congregation chose two equally qualified goats to present to God as ONE sin offering.

B. The choosing of the goat "for Azazel" was an essential part of the removal of sin determined BEFORE the shedding of blood.

17.  Marc : -This goat was not sacrificed but led out into the wilderness to perish; it was not a sin offering for the people as the Lord’s goat was (Lev. 16:15).

A.  It certainly was a sin offering. TWO GOATS for ONE SIN OFFERING.

Lev 16:5 And he shall take of the congregation of the children of Israel two kids of the goats for a sin offering, and one ram for a burnt offering.

Lev 16:7 And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the LORD at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

[THIS MAKES THEM BOTH MOST HOLY.]

Lev 16:10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.

B.  A similar event occurred two chapters before chapter 16 when a leprous house was cleansed. Two birds were chosen; both birds cleansed the house --the one which died and the living bird.

Lev 14:49 And he shall take to cleanse the house two birds, and cedar wood, and scarlet, and hyssop:

Lev 14:50 And he shall kill the one of the birds in an earthen vessel over running water:

Lev 14:51 And he shall take the cedar wood, and the hyssop, and the scarlet, and the living bird, and dip them in the blood of the slain bird, and in the running water, and sprinkle the house seven times:

Lev 14:52 And he shall cleanse the house with the blood of the bird, and with the running water, and with the living bird, and with the cedar wood, and with the hyssop, and with the scarlet:

Lev 14:53 But he shall let go the living bird out of the city into the open fields, and make an atonement for the house: and it shall be clean.

Lev 14:54 This is the law for all manner of plague of leprosy, and scall.

18.  SOUL SLEEP:

A. We can trade texts all day. The resurrection of the body was not the only or first reward for believers --it was the final reward.

B. Enoch, Moses and Elijah went to heaven before "necessary" SDA Investigate Judgment began in 1844.

C. Jesus would not use a pagan error to illustrate his parable of Lazarus and the rich man. One does not use error to illustrate truth.

D. I believe that the "great cloud of witnesses" of Hebrews 12:1 refers to the saints of Hebrews 11 in heaven.

E. Jesus' reference in John 14:1-3 is before Calvary when the souls of saints resided in the upper regions of Sheol instead of heaven.

F. The word Sheol is translated wrong by SDAs as grave. It is never only the grave. It includes both the residence of the soul and the place of the body. 65 OT texts prove you wrong.

G.  The fact that Saul consulted a witch proves that OT Hebrews believed that the soul exists outside the body.

19.  Transfer of sin to sanctuary

A. Everything you said about the transfer of sin is correct. It is what you omitted about SDA theology which is wrong. Sin was not brought into the sanctuary to defile it. That is contrary to all of the holiness requirements of the sanctuary.

B.  Atoned sins of ignorance were washed away at the doorway of the sanctuary where the sacrifice died. The sin was not brought into the sanctuary to defile it.

C. Presumptuous sin was brought to the judges and disciplined by them.

20.  Jesus and the Sabbath

Marc: -Isaiah speaks of righteous gentiles keeping the Sabbath.

A.  Isa 56:6 only includes those Gentiles who become circumcised and agree to observe Israel's covenant. It does not include Gentiles outside of their covenant.

B.  Ex 31:13-17 says that the Sabbath was a sign of the Old Covenant with national Israel. Not one missionary was ever sent out to convert Gentiles to the Law or Sabbath. Period.

21. Marc: -Jesus never broke the Sabbath according to God’s law only by the man made rules of the Pharisees Matthew 15/Mark 7

Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

A. Jesus must have kept all parts of the law in order to redeem those under the law. Of course He kept the Sabbath. He also kept all of the law which pertained to Jewish men. Your argument proves nothing.

B. Jesus did not command any Gentile whom he healed to show themselves to the priests, but he did command the Jew to do so.

C. Jesus would not have commanded disobedience to any of the law.

22. Marc: -He upheld the moral law as did Paul and James: Matthew 5:17-19; Romans 3:20, 31; 7:12; James 2:9-10; Ephesians 6:1-2

A. Jesus equally upheld all 600+ commands of the law. This is clear from Matthew 5:19-48 where all three parts of the law are given equal importance.

B.  The moral law is found throughout the Bible. Romans 1:18-20 and 2:14-16 illustrate the moral law from nature, creation and conscience. The principle of rest is found in moral law, but not the principles of a certain day.

23. Marc: -All of the 10 commandments can be found in principle in the OT …  And the Sabbath was made holy at Creation Gen. 2:2-3

A.  You are defining moral law wrong and are inconsistent. Read Romans 3 and discover that Paul was quoting Psalms and Isaiah for moral law.

B.  The Sabbath of Gen 2 is pre-sin and lasted as long as Adam and Eve lived in the garden before sin. There is no evening and morning of the first Creation Sabbath. Hebrews 4:3 restores believers to that state of being.