Followed by Russell Kelly's Reply to Marc Rasell, Oct 23, 2009
I came across your web site,
wanted to address some of the things there:
“within the veil”
Its unlikely Paul had in mind
a veil in the heavenly temple, he speaks of the veil as the body of Christ being torn and so providing direct access to God.
The arguments about which veil
it is miss the point that Paul is not addressing this, he is using the earthly tabernacle as a parable (Heb,. 9:9 parabole).
In reference to the heavenly
temple he just says that Christ entered the “ta hagia” holy places, but does not specify in which apartment. However
the fact that it is a plural suggests there are two apartments in heaven, and if Christ went straight to the most holy the
holy place would be redundant.
Antiochus IV Epiphanes
-When it says the little horn
came from one of “them” that can relate to either the horns or the winds. There is a Hebrew parallelism:
Verse 8 to
the four winds (fem.) of the heavens (masc.)
Verse 9 from
the one (fem.) from them (masc.)
reads, “And it made itself great even to the Prince of the host, and from Him was taken away the continual service,
and the foundation of His sanctuary was thrown down.” (Literal translation)
never threw down the foundation of the sanctuary which literally would mean he would have had to destroy it. Some modern dynamic
translations change the wording to make it fit the Antiochus theory but this is unwarranted because the Hebrew is clear. The
NIV says, “… and the place of his sanctuary was brought low.” The GNB reads, “… and desecrated
the Temple.” These do not
accurately translate the meaning of the text.
-It is no
where stated in the prophecy that the little horn defiles the sanctuary. Nevertheless many have tried to associate the time
when Antiochus defiled the temple to the 2300 evenings and mornings. However Antiochus only defiled the temple for three years
which does not fit the 2300 days
- In Daniel
we learn that the little horn
will come at the latter end of the Grecian reign. This cannot be said of Antiochus because he was somewhere in the middle
of the Selucid Empire among a number of other kings rather than at the latter end.
- There is
a strong parallel between the little horn of Daniel seven which represented Rome, and the little horn of Daniel eight in its geographical stage. This would suggest the little horn is connected
pagan and/or papal Rome which
is beyond the Antiochus era.
Just a note
to say Daniel 2, 7, 8 all end their visions with something in heaven: a rock cut out not by human hands and God’s kingdom,
a heavenly judgment scene and the cleansing of the sanctuary. And as both the judgment and cleansing occur after the little
horn’s reign of terror they parallel each other.
Europe / Papal Rome
Feet of iron
10 horns /
expands towards heaven
heaven / God’s kingdom
saints receive kingdom
of the sanctuary
The year day
This is derived
principally from the 70 weeks of Daniel 9. The words Shabua is used for weeks. To say they are weeks of years is not found
in the Hebrew text. The most common use for the phrase is in the expression feast of weeks which are literal weeks.
The word is
distinguished from “sevens” because it has different vowel pointing.
Nisdaq = cleansed
in the passive form only occurs once and the meaning has been lost so modern translators try to reconstruct it from the root
verb. Most ancient translations said it meant cleansed. The word has a broad spectrum of meanings including cleansed.
to the sacrifices which are always “morning and evening”. The translators of the LXX added the word days to their
of the sanctuary with blood
to inauguration rather than final cleansing. That the sanctuary itself was cleansed is stated in Leviticus 16:16 at the end
of the year, the link to the people’s sins is indirect.
In the holy
to Revelation 4-5 which uses imagery of the holy place: a door into heaven, incense, seven spirits, Jesus is there before
the throne. The earthly tabernacle was a shadow or copy of the reality in heaven, so there are some differences.
The word “tabnit”
in the Hebrew is used for a pattern or blueprint and usually signified something real it is based upon. See 2 Kings 16:10;
Ex. 25:9, 40.
temple is also referred to in Psalm 11:4; 2 Sam 22:7; Psalm 18:6; Micah 1:2; Habakkuk 2:20; Psalm 102:19; Psalm 150:1.
as a type
Yes, but not
all type are temporary shadows, e.g. marriage. Marriage is a type of our relationship with Christ but we don’t suggest
it is obsolete. Only types given after the fall involving animal sacrifices were temporary.
Jacob’s marriage week? And Noah who sent the dove out every seven days.
was for the Lord and the other for Azazel which the most ancient Jewish and Christian sources attributed to an evil being.
The fact that the Lord is a personal being suggests that Azazel is also a personal being.
of the scapegoat was only preformed after the sanctuary had been cleansed (Lev. ).
was not sacrificed but led out into the wilderness to perish; it was not a sin offering for the people as the Lord’s
goat was (Lev. ).
-We find a
fulfilment of this during the millennium (Revelation 20:1-4) when Satan is bound figuratively to the desolate earth for a
thousand years. Then he will be banished from the presence of God and His people, and finally be destroyed. Sin returns to
where it originated from and is blotted out.
of an immortal soul separate from the body conflicts with the resurrection of the dead – John 5:28-29; 1 Thess. 4; 1
Cor. 15. Peter in Acts said David was dead in his tomb and had not ascended to heaven. Jesus said Lazarus had fallen asleep.
Jesus said in John 14 he was going away to prepare a place for us and when he returns he will take us to be where he is. It
is on his second coming that we are taken to heaven, as Paul said the living shall not preceed the dead in Christ. Daniel
spoke of the dead awaking out of their sleep at the end in Daniel 12.
sin to sanctuary
committed a sin and repented of it, he would bring a sacrificial animal to be slaughtered (Leviticus 5:5-6, 10). He would
confess his sin and then the priest would make atonement for him and he would be forgiven.
rite the guilty person would lay his hands on the animal signifying a transference of guilt to the innocent animal (Leviticus
; ). The laying on of hands is used in the Bible to signify
transfer, such as to transfer guilt to a blasphemer before stoning him (Lev. 24:14), or when installing someone in a new office
(Num. 27:18; ; 1 Tim. 4:14),
in the giving of the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:18), and it is also used for healings (Mark 9:18; 16:18; Acts 28:8).
-In the sacrificial
rites we have a picture of Jesus, the Lamb of God who came to take away the sins of the world (John ). The paradox is that the one who was totally innocent
was counted as guilty so that the guilty would be counted as innocent. A strange transfer took place in the sacrificial service,
the guilty escaped death by the death of the innocent lamb.
of righteous gentiles keeping the Sabbath
broke the Sabbath according to God’s law only by the man made rules of the Pharisees Matthew 15/Mark 7
the moral law as did Paul and James: Matthew 5:17-19; Romans , 31; ; James 2:9-10;
-All of the
10 commandments can be found in principle in the OT, for example Cain murdered Abel, Joseph refused to commit adultery etc.
And the Sabbath was made holy at Creation Gen. 2:2-3
Russ: Your comments about
the veil are good but they are contrary to what EGW and SDAs have always taught. Ellen G White made a big deal out of the
veil ---not me. She was wrong. Since Christ was the veil and, since the veil separated the holy from the most holy, then logic
teaches that the heavenly sanctuary does not have a veil separating two rooms.
Christ entered into the
Presence of the Father and sat down at His right hand as his ascension. That absolutely must mean that he has been in the
MHP since his ascension and SDA theology is wrong.
2.ANTIOCHUS IV EPIPHANES:
Russ: Daniel 8:8-9 could refer
to either a horn or a direction. SDAs teach that "out of one of them" refers to one of the "winds" --or Rome in
the West. Others say it must refer to one of the four "horns" which replaced Alexander the Great --the Seleucids.
A. The SDA argument is
weak because no new "animal" arose to replace the goat of Greece. The pattern
in Daniel 2 was to bring up a new metal and the pattern in Daniel 7 and 8 was to bring up a new animal for a new kingdom.
B. The SDA position is
even weaker when it teaches that the three little horns in Daniel 7 were the Arian Ostrogoths, Heruli and Vandals. However
the prophecy has them being part of the Roman beast but these three were never part of pagan Rome.
3.Marc argued that Antiochus never "cast down the foundation of the sanctuary.
A. Antiochus did kill many
Jews, cast out the high priest and destroy the great altar of burnt offering by offering a pig on it (8:10-11). This stopped
sanctuary usage until it was cleansed from defilement.
B. Neither did the Roman
Catholic Church literally cast down the sanctuary.
C. The only way SDAs try
to justify these texts is to combine pagan Rome with Papal Rome.
D. SDAs teach that the
RCC figuratively cast down the sanctuary in heaven when it introduced the confessional.I reply that Antiochus' actions are much closer to the fulfilment than is the figurative confessional in the 12th century.
E. We both point out
that the Roman Empire which literally threw down the sanctuary in AD70 is a type of the Antichrist. In Mt 24:15 Jesus connects
Antiochus with the Antichrist. There is no connection between Antiochus and the RC Church. This argument is at the most a
F.If the SDA 2300 years began in BC 457, that should be the beginning point of the little horn's desolations.
However neither pagan Rome nor papal Rome did anything in BC 457. This is a serious SDA error.
4.Marc said "Antiochus only defiled the temple for three years which does not fit the 2300 days."
A.2300 days is 6.4 years. It does fit the period 171 to 165 BC when Antiochus began his oppression. 2300
cycles of evening and morning sacrifices is also 3.2 years which fits the period 168 to 165 BC
B. If Antiochus does
not fit the 2300 days, then the SDA 2300 years certainly does not fit! SDAs had to invent an entirely new interpretation to
force it to fit in order to explain William Miller's false prophecy of the end of the world in 1844. Nobody, absolutely nobody,
agrees with you that Jesus entered into the MHP to begin judging believers in 1844. And you accuse us of things which "do
C. If the Bible teaches
a day-for-a-year principle to be used in prophecy, and if the one-day-a-year is a prophecy to begin in 1844, then the Day
of Atonement should have lasted from 1844 to 1845. How do you justify saying that the prophetic Day of Atonement has already
lasted 165 years? (2009-1844)
5.Marc said: "In Daniel we learn that the little horn will come at the latter end of the Grecian reign. This
cannot be said of Antiochus because he was somewhere in the middle of the Seleucid Empire among a number of other kings rather
than at the latter end."
A. Biblical prophecy
focuses on national Israel. As far as Israel was concerned Antiochus
IV did indeed come as the LAST of the Seleucid rulers over Israel. The next
non-Jewish ruler over Israel would be pagan Rome in AD 64.
B. The prophecy is clear
that the giant goat horn of Alexander would be replaced by his four generals.That
is historically accurate in Greece, Macedonia, Syria Seleucids and Egypt. Again no
new animal was introduced in Daniel 8.
C. Since SDAs cannot
credit this to the RCC, they claim that pagan Rome and papal Rome are the same power in prophetic history. You have to ignore the fact that pagan Rome persecuted
the early church from its beginning until AD 325. And even then the early church was only one of many religions within pagan
Rome for until AD 476. Your blending of pagan Roman and papal Rome is about 450 years out
of its historical context.
Marc said "Just a note
to say Daniel 2, 7, 8 all end their visions with something in heaven."
A. I disagree. My Bible
ends chapters two and seven with God's kingdom on earth which your doctrine of the millennium totally ignores.
B. You accept your myth
as a fact in chapter 8 and then argue from your myth. The sanctuary immediately before is almost universally
interpreted to be the Temple in Jerusalem in -12. And it is absolutely clear that the sanctuary in chapter 9 is the Temple
in Jerusalem. Your interpretation of a heavenly sanctuary in is completely
out of context even in Daniel.
C. In chapter 9 Daniel
was grieving about the literal sanctuary on Earth which had been destroyed. How would a cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary
2300 years in the future be a consolation for Daniel?
7.THE YEAR DAY PRINCIPLE:
Marc said "This is derived
principally from the 70 weeks of Daniel 9."
A. You should read a
lot more SDA literature. The source is almost always Numbers and Ezekiel 4:6. The Hebrew of Daniel
9 can stand on its own without resorting to Numbers 14:34. And did anybody ever tell you that the vowel markings were not
introduced into the Hebrew text until 700-800 years after Calvary?
B.There is no connection the Sabbath years of Daniel 9:24 and the ereb-boqer of .
8.Nisdaq = cleansed
Marc said "Most ancient
translations said it meant cleansed."
A. The NAS reads "then
will be properly restored." The NIV reads "then will be reconsecrated." The RSV reads "then shall be restored to its rightful
state." The acts of the little horn were to END at the END of the 2300 days. SDAs teach that they would "begin to end"!!!
How do you justify your misuse of the text?
B. TSA-DEK is almost
always understood to mean "righteous." Check out Strongs' #6663.
C. If God had wanted
us to connect it to the cleansing of the Day of Atonement, He would have surely used the word TAHER. Almost ALL of the modern
translations have it correct.
9.EVENING AND MORNING:
Marc said "Evenings and
never refer to the sacrifices
which are always “morning and evening”.
A. Lev 24:3 Without
the vail of the testimony, in the tabernacle of the congregation, shall Aaron order it from the evening unto the morning before
the LORD continually: it shall be a statute for ever in your generations.
B. I suppose Leviticus
24:3 is not in your Bible. This is the first use in the heart of the ceremonial worship ordinance.
C. Since the Hebrew
day began at sunset with the evening sacrifice, common sense tells us that Daniel 8:14 would have been understood as normal
D. What gives you the
authority to insist on interpreting Daniel 8:14 as prophetic years?
10. Marc wrote: Anointing
of the sanctuary with blood. See Hebrews 9:21. This refers to inauguration rather than final cleansing."
A.Yes, it does refer to inauguration. When Jesus entered heaven he inaugurated the New Covenant once and
for all time.
B. There is no indication
that the heavenly sanctuary was ever defied or ever required a cleansing. It is incredible to teach that God's dwelling place
could even be defiled.
11. Marc wrote "That the
sanctuary itself was cleansed is stated in Leviticus at the end of the year, the link to the people’s
sins is indirect."
A.The earthly sanctuary required cleansing because it was located "in the midst" of several million sinners.
That is not true of the heavenly sanctuary.
B. The blood shed on
the Day of Atonement did exactly the same thing as the blood shed every day of the year. It washed away sin at the entrance
and it was presented to God as proof that the redemption price had been paid.
C.The only difference between the Day of Atonement and other days was to cover sins of ignorance which had
not been previously confessed. And only minor sins of ignorance, accidental swearing and theft were brought to the sanctuary.
Major presumptuous sins were brought to the judges and disciplined harshly. See Lev 4 and Heb also.
12.IN THE HOLY PLACE:
Marc wrote: According
to Revelation 4-5 which uses imagery of the holy place: a door into heaven, incense, seven spirits, Jesus is there
before the throne. The earthly tabernacle was a shadow or copy of the reality in heaven, so there are some differences.
A.Revelation 4 and 5 are a picture of the throne room of God where no veil exists. All items of furniture
are in the same room. Your attempt to place the scene only in the first compartment is ridiculous.
B. Revelation was written
before AD 100. This is about 1744 years before the SDA church says it really happened.
13.THE SABBATH AS A TYPE:
Marc said "Yes, but not
all type are temporary shadows, e.g. marriage. … Only types given after the fall involving animal sacrifices were temporary."
A.The seventh-day Sabbath given to national Israel after its
removal from slavery was merely a type of the original pre-sin Sabbath in which man rested 7 days a week and 24 hours a day.
B.The Saturday seventh-day Sabbath was only commanded to Israel in Ex 31:13-17
and God did not command Israel to share its covenant with Gentiles who did not dwell with them as circumcised.
14. THE SCAPEGOAT:
Marc said: "One goat was
for the Lord and the other for Azazel which the most ancient Jewish and Christian sources attributed to an evil being."
A.The Bible does not say that the scapegoat "was" Azazel. It was "for" Azazel.
B. BOTH were offered
alive before the Lord "as a sin offering." All sin offerings became MOST HOLY (Num 18:9). If the scapegoat were Satan, the
high priest would have been defiled when he placed his hands on him.
15. Marc wrote: The fact
that the Lord is a personal being suggests that Azazel is also a personal being.
Jesus died outside the
camp, outside the holy camp of God's people --in Satan's camp. The fact that Jesus died in Azazel's domain does not make Jesus
16: Marc: -The rite of
the scapegoat was only preformed after the sanctuary had been cleansed (Lev. ).
A.The rite involving the scapegoat BEGAN when the congregation chose two equally qualified goats to present
to God as ONE sin offering.
B. The choosing of the
goat "for Azazel" was an essential part of the removal of sin determined BEFORE the shedding of blood.
17.Marc : -This goat was not sacrificed but led out into the wilderness to perish; it was not a sin offering
for the people as the Lord’s goat was (Lev. ).
A.It certainly was a sin offering. TWO GOATS for ONE SIN OFFERING.
Lev 16:5 And he shall
take of the congregation of the children of Israel two kids of the goats for a sin offering, and one ram for a burnt
Lev 16:7 And he shall
take the two goats, and present them before the LORD at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
[THIS MAKES THEM BOTH
Lev But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make
an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.
B.A similar event occurred two chapters before chapter 16 when a leprous house was cleansed. Two birds were
chosen; both birds cleansed the house --the one which died and the living bird.
Lev And he shall take to cleanse the house two birds, and cedar wood, and scarlet, and hyssop:
Lev And he shall kill the one of the birds in an earthen vessel over running water:
Lev 14:51 And he shall
take the cedar wood, and the hyssop, and the scarlet, and the living bird, and dip them in the blood of the slain bird,
and in the running water, and sprinkle the house seven times:
Lev And he shall cleanse the house with the blood of the bird, and with the running water, and with the living
bird, and with the cedar wood, and with the hyssop, and with the scarlet:
Lev But he shall let go the living bird out of the city into the open fields, and make an atonement for
the house: and it shall be clean.
Lev This is the law for all manner of plague of leprosy, and scall.
A. We can trade texts
all day. The resurrection of the body was not the only or first reward for believers --it was the final reward.
B. Enoch, Moses and
Elijah went to heaven before "necessary" SDA Investigate Judgment began in 1844.
C. Jesus would not use
a pagan error to illustrate his parable of Lazarus and the rich man. One does not use error to illustrate truth.
D. I believe that the
"great cloud of witnesses" of Hebrews 12:1 refers to the saints of Hebrews 11 in heaven.
E. Jesus' reference
in John 14:1-3 is before Calvary when the souls of saints resided in the upper regions of Sheol instead of heaven.
F. The word Sheol is
translated wrong by SDAs as grave. It is never only the grave. It includes both the residence of the soul and the place of
the body. 65 OT texts prove you wrong.
G.The fact that Saul consulted a witch proves that OT Hebrews believed that the soul exists outside the body.
19.Transfer of sin to sanctuary
A. Everything you said
about the transfer of sin is correct. It is what you omitted about SDA theology which is wrong. Sin was not brought into the
sanctuary to defile it. That is contrary to all of the holiness requirements of the sanctuary.
B.Atoned sins of ignorance were washed away at the doorway of the sanctuary where the sacrifice died. The
sin was not brought into the sanctuary to defile it.
C. Presumptuous sin
was brought to the judges and disciplined by them.
20.Jesus and the Sabbath
Marc: -Isaiah speaks of
righteous gentiles keeping the Sabbath.
A.Isa 56:6 only includes those Gentiles who become circumcised and agree to observe Israel's
covenant. It does not include Gentiles outside of their covenant.
B.Ex 31:13-17 says that the Sabbath was a sign of the Old Covenant with national Israel.
Not one missionary was ever sent out to convert Gentiles to the Law or Sabbath. Period.
21. Marc: -Jesus never
broke the Sabbath according to God’s law only by the man made rules of the Pharisees Matthew 15/Mark 7
Gal 4:4 But when the
fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
Gal 4:5 To redeem them
that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
A. Jesus must have kept
all parts of the law in order to redeem those under the law. Of course He kept the Sabbath. He also kept all of the law which
pertained to Jewish men. Your argument proves nothing.
B. Jesus did not command
any Gentile whom he healed to show themselves to the priests, but he did command the Jew to do so.
C. Jesus would not have
commanded disobedience to any of the law.
22. Marc: -He upheld the
moral law as did Paul and James: Matthew 5:17-19; Romans , 31; ; James 2:9-10;
A. Jesus equally upheld
all 600+ commands of the law. This is clear from Matthew 5:19-48 where all three parts of the law are given equal importance.
B.The moral law is found throughout the Bible. Romans -20 and -16
illustrate the moral law from nature, creation and conscience. The principle of rest is found in moral law, but not the principles
of a certain day.
23. Marc: -All of the
10 commandments can be found in principle in the OT … And the Sabbath was
made holy at Creation Gen. 2:2-3
A.You are defining moral law wrong and are inconsistent. Read Romans 3 and discover that Paul was quoting
Psalms and Isaiah for moral law.
B.The Sabbath of Gen 2 is pre-sin and lasted as long as Adam and Eve lived in the garden before sin. There
is no evening and morning of the first Creation Sabbath. Hebrews 4:3 restores believers to that state of being.
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Russell Earl Kelly, PH. D., 316 Aonia Road, Washington, Ga 30673